[chandler-users] [Bulk] Sorting

Tue Oct 28 08:52:02 PDT 2008

I've been using Chandler for about four weeks after probably 15 years of experience with
other software and about 5 years with the paper Franklin Planner before that.  Chandler
is quite different in terms of its approach as you're aware and the big issue for me has
been shifting to the Chandler mind set: learning how to use the triage flag and the
collections in conjunction to organize my stuff and I'm starting to get comfortable with
it.  The first thing to note is that I'm not dumb, I've had twenty years experience and
it's taken me four weeks to start to get it.  Maybe it's a problem of teaching an old dog
new tricks, but from reading this list I suspect others can find it difficult and
frustrating as well.    I'm finding this discussion very helpful because Ann is
validating my difficulties and Keith helped me get an idea of how it's supposed to be
used.  Therefor, I think there's a real need to educate new users on how to do it to
reduce the thrashing and frustration some of us experience.

I tend to work with items sorted by triage status as it makes the most sense to me but
when I look at them I see no pattern to the items within the statuses, i.e. none of the 
other columns are in any visible sequence.  Can someone tell me what the sequence is? 
I've been assuming there is some obscure Python-internal ordering (similar to Python
dictionaries) that needs further development to get under control but this discussion
seems to hint there is an order. 

my $.02.

Al

.Mimi Yin <mimi at osafoundation.org> writes:
>Good idea Fritz.

>
>
>
>Perhaps we should revive the "Known Issues" page and put it there? It was put together a
>year ago for Preview, so it's sadly out of date. I can take a look at cleaning it up.
>
>
>[ http://chandlerproject.org/knownissues ]http://chandlerproject.org/knownissues
>
>
>In terms of what can we do to make this less confusing / more understandable...Some
>ideas we've been batting around include:
>- Adding "gray labels" to the dates so you know what kind of date you're looking at
>(similar to the Who column. (Rem(inder), St(art), Ed(ited) on, Cr(eated) on.)
>-- [ https://bugzilla.osafoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12257
>]https://bugzilla.osafoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12257
>
>
>- Sort non-alarmed and non-calendar items in the LATER section is based on the "Edited /
>Created on" date, which is visible in the date column, not when the item was triaged to
>LATER, which is not visible.
>
>
>- Sort the DONE section based on the date that's visible in the date column. This means
>that  you will not be guaranteed to see the items you most recently triaged to DONE at
>the top of the list, but probably 90% of the tim
 used
>e, you will.
>
>
>My understanding is, this is the sorting behavior that Jeffrey has been working on for
>the re-architecture.
>
>
>See proposal on Chandler-Dev: [
>http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/chandler-dev/2008-October/010373.html
>]http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/chandler-dev/2008-October/010373.html
>
>
>Mimi
>
>On Oct 28, 2008, at 3:22 AM, Fritz Meissner wrote:
>
>
>
>Hi Keith,  
>That certainly helped me a lot to understand this under-documented aspect of Chandler.
>Can I suggest that you put this info into the wiki ? I don't think that this is there
>yet, and I think that it is essential info for all new Chandler users.
>
>Regards,
>Fritz
>
>2008/10/28 Keith Winsor <[ mailto:kjwstuff at btopenworld.com ]kjwstuff at btopenworld.com>
>
>
>
>Hi Ann,
>
>Comments below, but first a little background info.
>
>As you rightly say, sorting has been discussed in a few posts. The basic premise of
>Chandler organisation is that items are triaged into three sections: Now, Later, Done.
>Items can optionally have alarms set and, when those alarms in Later trigger, the item
>automatically pops into the Now section. Un-alarmed Later items pop to Now on their due
>date, so you can do the GtD thing of forgetting about stuff until it gets 'tickled'.
>
>Sorting into the appropriate section is achieved by simply clicking repeatedly on the
>Now/Later/Done icon. The problem is, if you click on something flagged as Now, you don't
>want it disappearing into Later immediately, if your intention was to click twice and
>mark it as done. So the operation is carried out in two stages: first you change the
>status of all the items you want to change, then you hit the Cleanup button (originally
>marked 'Triage') to despatch them to the appropriate section.
>
>When alarms fire or when an item is edited by someone else, that item jumps back to Now,
>even if it is marked as Later, to bring to your attention that something has changed.
>These items jump to the top of the Now section, regardless of their actual due date.
>Similarly, items passing their due date change automatically to Done, unless they are
>marked as Starred (i.e. tasks). So an appointment passing its due date is marked as
>Done, but a task passing its due date is only Done when you say it is. There are a few
>bugs in this behaviour, mostly to do with repeating items, but that's the theory of how
>it all hangs together.
>
>Having got that out of the way, on to sorting...
>
>Mimi summarised sorting proposals like this on October 1st (my comments interspersed):
>
> 
>NOW
>- Continue to sort NOW by triageStatusChanged (aka when an item becomes NOW)
>- Allow NOW items to be manually re-ordered.
>
>So at present Now sorts by the date the item was stamped Now, irrespective of its due
>date.
>
>
>
>LATER
>- Continue to sort LATER items that have custom-date tickler alarms and/or events to the
>top of the LATER section, leaving date-less Someday Maybe items at the bottom.
>- Change the way Someday Maybe items are sorted by sorting on the "Edited on" date, aka
>the date that appears in the Date column.
>
>and Later sorts by event date/alarm date, with undated items sorting to the bottom
>
>
>
>DONE
>- Sort the DONE section by whatever appears in the Date column: Custom-date tickler
>alarm, Event date, Edited on date.
>
>At present, I think there is a lot of confusion caused by sorting on fields that aren't
>necessarily even visible, such as the Last Edited Date.
>
>For me, the logical solution would be to follow the traditional secondary/primary sort
>method: click on title column header then date column header results in 'sort by date,
>then title'. Except Now items that have been automatically changed by the system in some
>way, or edited by someone else, which should sort to the top. In addition, a lot of
>people have requested the ability to manually sort the Now section...
>
>Later is a can of worms, as [ https://bugzilla.osafoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8939
>]this Bugzilla page attests. Do you sort by due date? What about those items with an
>alarm a fortnight before their due date - should they be sorted by alarm date instead?
>
>Done should be sorted by completion date, the date the item was marked Done.
>
>The real difficulty is, bearing in mind each section is sorting on a potentially
>different set of criteria, how do you display this in table view? Ideally, the top of
>each section would display in some way the sort criteria being used.
>
>
>Ann Norcross wrote: 
>
>I have some questions about sorting. 
>
>I know that sorting of the Triage list has had a few posts, and I'm sorry to start off
>with such a negative attitude, but I have to say that I am so totally confused by the
>sort mechanism that I really don't know how I can use the Dashboard or any of my
>collecitons. Seriously.
>
>Here's a run-down of what I do, what I expect, and what happens, in case it is at all
>useful...
>
>Any hints on how to understand the sort would also be helpful to me.
>
>From Dashboard view, I press ...
>... the little squiggly triangle at the top of the last coulumn until the NOW items are
>at the top.
>... the bigger squiggly triangle labeled CLEANUP at the top of the screen
>
>I expect...
>... to see a series of NOW items sorted by date.
>... that if I press the little sguiggly triangle again, I'll see all my LATER items at
>the top, sorted by date.
>  
>
>
>
>Now I would have expected this to reverse the sort, so Done came to the top, with Now at
>the bottom.
>
>
>
>... that if I press the little sguiggly triangle a third time, I'll see all my DONE
>items at the top, sorted by date.
>  
>
>
>
>The closest Chandler offers at the moment is to click downward-facing arrow adjacent the
>word Now in the grey section header. This hide all the items in that section. Click
>again to view. I generally leave my Done section hidden, as it makes the scroll bar
>bigger.
>
>
>
>Instead, I see...
>...  a series of NOW items sorted arbitarily, not by date, not by title, not by
>person... I have absolutely no idea what I am looking at, what is most important, and
>what I should pay attention to next.
>... my LATER items sorted with all the alarmed items at the top, soonest to farthest
>away, followed by all the rest of my LATER items sorted arbitrarily, with some TODAY
>items  at the top and some at the bottom.
>... my DONE items sorted in no particular order that I can discern.
>
>So, perhaps Triage sort is not useful for me. Ok, no problem, I'll try sorting by DATE,
>if that's what I want....
>
>From Dashboard view, I press ...
>... the DATE column-title
>
>I expect ...
>...  to see all my NOW items sorted by ascending or descending date.
>... that if I press the DATE heading again, the sort order will reverse.
>
>  
>
>
>
>There's a strong argument for clicking on Date respecting the triage status and sorting
>just within each section.
>
>
>
>Instead, I see ...
>... all my items (NOW, LATER, and DONE) merged togther and sorted in one column in some
>arbitrary order, not date, not title, not user. Again, I have no idea what I am looking
>at and what is important.
>  
>
>
>
>Again, it's the sorting on a value you can't see that causes the confusion.
>
>
>
>So, I press ...
>... DATE a second time, and it brings all the alrams to the top, in no particular
>order... it looks like today's alarmed items are on the bottom of the
>alarmed-items-group and the rest of the alarmed items start at the top with farthest in
>the future and the deadlines get closer as the list goes down.
>
>At this point, I start making lots of individual collections, hoping to get the sort
>granualr enough that I can use it. That doesn't work, either. I am frustrated, and
>retreat to my email client as a task manager. Help.
>
>ann
>
>
>
>I think the key to successfully using Chandler is to keep the Now section down to
>immediate 'Next Actions', and triage to Later (with alarms for when you need to be
>reminded of them) all the 'soon but not yets'. By keeping it small, the somewhat
>(apparently) arbitrary sorting becomes less of an issue: you can still see the imminent
>items. Anything undated becomes 'Someday/Maybe', reviewed as and when you feel the need.
>
>Hope this explains, if not exactly clarifies. Let us know if you need more.
>
>All the best,
>
>Keith
>
>
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Al Maki
Systems Manager
Raincoast Books
604 323 7185